A Conversation with Ali Stroker

a.k.a. PART TWO of "thoughts on making cooking more physically accessible"

Hi all!! The other week I got to share so many thoughts from all of you on some ways to make cooking more accessible. See here if you missed it!

In addition to so many of you readers who offered great tips and thoughts, the one-and-only Ali Stroker reached out and offered to share some of her thoughts about her experiences cooking. I am SUCH A FAN!! of hers so jumped at the chance to have, and now share, a conversation.

MORE ABOUT ALI: Ali Stroker is a Tony Award-winning actress for her role as ‘Ado Annie’ in the 2019 revival of Rodgers and Hammerstein's Oklahoma! She made history as the first actor in a wheelchair to appear on Broadway in Deaf West’s acclaimed 2015 revival of Spring Awakening. She can be seen as a series regular on Netflix’s, “Echoes”, as well as on Hulu’s, “Only Murders in the Building." She recurred on Netflix in “Ozark” and on ABC's “Ten Days in the Valley,” and guest starred on HBO Max’s “And Just Like That…”, CBS' “Blue Bloods” and “Instinct”, Freeform's “The Bold Type,” Fox’s “Lethal Weapon,” The CW's “Charmed” and Comedy Central's “Drunk History” as well as the children shows “The Helpsters” on Apple TV and a number of episodes of “Sesame Street.” Ali starred in the summer of ’22 in Shakespeare in the Park’s Richard III as Anne. She was on “The Glee Project,” culminating in a guest role on Fox’s “Glee”, and in Lifetime's holiday movie, "Christmas Ever After.” Ali is a regular on Nickelodeon's animated series, "Big Nate,” and she plays "Daisy" on Disney’s animated "Alice's Wonderland Bakery."  Ali is the proud author of her middle grade novel, The Chance to Fly (Abrams Books), and her children’s book, Ali and the Sea Stars (HarperCollins).  She can be heard on the Grammy nominated cast album of the revival of Oklahoma! the musical. Ali’s most proud roles are mommy to Jesse and wife to David!

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AND BEFORE I JUMP INTO OUR CONVERSATION, A FEW REMINDERS!

• My upcoming cookbook WHAT GOES WITH WHAT will be out this fall!! All info is here!! If you’d like a signed or personalized copy, order your copy from Oblong Books.

• My last class before my summer teaching break will be on SUNDAY JUNE 30: An Early Summer Picnic!!!

  • → Remember that even if you can’t attend live, if you sign up for class you’ll automatically receive the class recipe document and the class recording the same day class happens.

  • → As always, if money is a barrier and you want to come to a class, just let me know and we’ll work it out!

  • → Also remember that I have a large online archive of all of my previously-recorded classes: there are A HUNDRED AVAILABLE! CHECK THEM OUT HERE!

• If you want to hear more about the work I do every Monday with my friends at Common Table (Emmet, Stephen, and Timmy), sign up for Full Fridge Club: Dishing it Out. It’s a monthly newsletter and contains notes about our monthly menus, queer history from my pal Timmy, and at least two recipes written by me every month for paid subscribers. And more! It’s great! The most recent one includes a BEAUTIFUL ESSAY FROM TIMMY!

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MY CONVERSATION WITH ALI STROKER

JULIA: I was so touched by your email and your offer to share about your experiences. I appreciate whatever thoughts you’d like to share.

ALI: I have so many thoughts! First of all, I've never lived in a place with an accessible kitchen because I rented and now we own a home but we haven't redone the kitchen. I always felt a little bit limited because the stovetop has always been a challenge. I always tell my husband that I need a bird's eye. I can't see into pots, into skillets, you know.

JULIA: That makes so much sense. So how does cooking work in your home?

ALI: So, my husband is an amazing, beautiful cook and loves to cook. It just felt like such a relief to know that I was with somebody who gets so much joy out of cooking and feeding me and my family. It wasn't until I had my son that this cooking sort-of anxiety kind of kicked in for me. I felt a real responsibility. Actually knowing that I was going to talk to you this week, I texted my sister and I was like “tell me the easiest meat sauce for pasta that I can make.” And even with that easy recipe, the first thing that I come up against is that so much of our cookware is heavy. When you're standing and you pick up a pot, the weight is in front of you. But for me, it’s all at the level of my head.

JULIA: How do you navigate the lifting?

ALI: I'm gonna find the lightest pots we have and use paper plates, one because it's the lightest thing to carry over to the table and two, the clean up. My sink is not accessible. So doing dishes is like literally going to the water park. Obviously it’s not like the greenest choice, but I’m going to invest in some lightweight, maybe even plastic outdoor dishes for when I want to cook and serve. 

JULIA: What kind-of stove do you have?

ALI: We have an electric stove (there’s no gas on our street). So that is a danger zone for me. When I reach to the back of the stove to turn it on or off, my arm is like an inch away from the heat. So I'm like turning on burners with wooden spoons, which isn’t great. The best thing that I've come across is hot plates (my husband got us an induction hot plate). I also found a chopping block that is height-adjustable on Amazon that I got during the pandemic. And we have our air fryer which is amazing for accessibility because it's lightweight and you can put it at whatever height you want.

JULIA: You mentioned possibly redesigning your kitchen. What are some things you’d like to change?

ALI:  I want the countertops to be low enough that I can roll under them because that's the best way to get leverage when I'm chopping. And then I can have more of that ‘bird’s eye view.’ Also maybe a mirror over the stove so I can have the view of standing above the food. 

JULIA: Any thoughts about other big appliances?

ALI: Our refrigerator is new and we got one of them that has a freezer drawer and above that the refrigerator doors open out like a closet. But it’s all too high for me. I can only really reach the first two shelves. You adapt, right? And you accommodate for what you have. But the truth is when I watch cooking shows and watch able-bodied people in the kitchen, there seems to be this fluidness that I would love to achieve in a kitchen and to be able to enjoy food like that. 

JULIA: As you’re figuring out how to make your kitchen work best for you and your family, are there any resources that you have found to be especially useful? Like an architect or designer who's made accessible kitchens before? Anything like that?

ALI: The most useful resources are social media and other people in chairs who have figured this out for themselves. It is so common amongst the disabled community that it mostly comes from other people's lived experience. I know that there are architects out there that do ADA across the board. However, and I think this is super important, just because something is ADA-compliant doesn't mean that it's the right accommodation for me. Blanket ADA accessibility is wonderful and I am so so grateful that I have the rights to be able to access public spaces, etc. However, if we're talking about a space that really works for me and my specific disability, it's a custom situation. Which is kind-of fun because to me it's an opportunity to get creative. But it’s also such a privilege. Not everyone gets to design their own kitchen. 

JULIA: These are all such great points. What are some of your more financially accessible thoughts on making the kitchen physically accessible? You’ve already told me quite a few including an adjustable cutting board, air fryer, and lightweight cookware and dishes. Anything else you’d like to add? 

ALI: A sink that extends to the edge of the counter is great so if you're sitting sideways in your chair, it is a little bit easier than trying to reach over the counter to get in the sink. Open shelving, even just like an old bookshelf, is great for pots and pans, etc. Rather than using upper cabinets which can’t be reached. Another thing is what you’re making. I'm much more comfortable making things that are cold or room temp versus using an oven and/or a stovetop.

JULIA: I can imagine. When you mentioned the meat sauce, I was wondering what is it like for you to boil like a pound of spaghetti and drain it?

ALI: Yeah, I don't use big pots because I can't carry big pots of water. So I use a much smaller pot. Our sink is not next to our stove so I fill it with water and basically put it on the counter and slowly pull it along the counter and then once I get to the stove, put it on the stove and I do the same thing for when it's done. I'll take it off the stove and put it immediately on a cutting board right next to the stove and then I'll slowly pull it over to the sink where I have the strainer ready. And when I drain it, I immediately run cold water on it because I've been burned. before. And that experience was really intense.

JULIA: Thanks for explaining that so I can better understand your experience.

ALI: Another thought is that I think there's like all this pressure about what your kitchen should look like. We live in this time right now where it's like we're just constantly bombarded with images of beautiful things. Don't get me wrong, I am obsessed with all of that. However, to me what's really, really cool is things that are really custom fit for you and there are ways to make that beautiful. 

JULIA: Do you have anything like that in your kitchen already?

ALI: My husband and I are talking about getting a big peg board for our pots and pans because it's helpful for him, too, because so much of our stuff is low. He's six feet tall and I'm sitting at, like, four feet. So you know, it's like we have everything low because otherwise I don't have the option. But if he's doing like eighty percent of the cooking then should we have two sets of things or can we create something that is accessible for both of us? Because we both live here and we both want to cook and we both want to have easy access. So yeah right now we’re thinking of a big peg board and creating a cool design with all the stuff that we can hang on it versus having it all stacked down below in a cabinet where it’s hard to get stuff out. Oh and before I forget, an espresso machine has been amazing for me! 

JULIA: How so?

ALI: I can make myself a beautiful cup of coffee versus using a coffee pot which feels kind-of overwhelming. There's something about being able to make yourself a cup of coffee. I just think everyone deserves that. And again people have different mobility needs and limitations, so I even get afraid of saying like everyone deserves that because maybe somebody is reading who can't use their hands or something.

JULIA:  When you say everyone deserves to make themselves a cup of coffee, what I hear is just that everyone deserves the feeling of providing something beautiful for yourself, whatever it is.

ALI: Sometimes we forget that that's really hard for somebody to accomplish if they don't have accommodations. I also have found the grill to be one of the most accessible spaces for me. There's space underneath the knobs, my knees go under it a little bit but it's not hot, and I just feel like I can access it a little bit easier. I really like cooking outside. It feels so good.

JULIA: Oh I also love to grill so much. When you say it feels good, can you tell me more about that?

ALI: This is how I'll articulate it: I don't feel like I belong in every space all the time. And so being in sort-of a non-traditional space opens up more space for me.

JULIA: I love that. Yeah, that makes so much sense.

ALI: And so, like, being outside and being on our deck,, if something spills or whatever, it’s fine. There's also something about grilling for me that's not precision-oriented. It's okay if the burgers aren’t all exactly medium. There's something that's a little bit more loose. And there isn't like a cabinet boxing me in and something else behind me. There’s literally space to do things differently. I also have a plastic table out on our deck that I put a cute tablecloth on and some candles and I use it not just to eat at, but also to put things on when I’m cooking. It's so nice because it's just a regular table that I can roll under. So, like, if I wanna chop or whatever, it’s more comfortable. So, yeah, I have been finding the most joy cooking outdoors.

JULIA: I love that so much. 

ALI: The question that I would pose to people who want to cook who have different abilities in the kitchen is “what parts of this do you want to experience?” How do you translate it for you and your body? And I'm still asking that question for myself all the time. Like, what do I want out of this? Like the other night we made brownies, but we made box brownies and it was so fun. What I wanted to get out of making brownies was making them with my son Jesse. I wanted him to be able to pour the oil while I held the measuring cup and for us to hold the whisk together. And I used a chair as our surface because I wanted Jesse to be able to see in the bowl, just like I want to see in the bowl. The brownies didn’t have to be from scratch.

JULIA: You know, I'm someone who writes cookbooks and teaches cooking classes and stuff, but I always use box brownie mix. Whatever that’s worth. What you're saying is so true for all of us. Just asking ourselves “what do I want to get out of this experience?” 

ALI: I had our neighbors over recently and I made burgers. What I like most about burgers is to put all the toppings out for everyone. So I got the pre-made ground beef burger patties from the store and two different pre-made salads. So throwing the burgers on the grill, toasting the buns and making the special sauce for the burgers is as much cooking as I needed to do to get the experience I wanted to have of making dinner for people.

JULIA: Yes!! I feel like I’m telling people all the time to be easy on themselves. Like where did we get the notion we have to make everything ourselves? I certainly don’t.

ALI: Achieving independence is not a given for somebody with a disability. And it's never something I’ve ever taken for granted. It's all so complicated. I was hurt when I was two so I did all this physical therapy, but I didn't do the everyday living pieces of rehab. I always have just felt like I had to make it up and be creative, which I think is a plus because nobody's telling you what to do, but also scary because it's like “I don't know how to do any of this!”

JULIA: That makes so much sense. I feel like a lot of people can relate to that no matter their experience too. Like just the feeling of not having a guidebook to life.

ALI: I'm just so glad that you're writing about cooking with disabilities because I think that it's maybe not obvious to some people. Like, people are generally more interested in how I drive than how I cook. But I need to eat to survive. 

JULIA: And there's so much pleasure you can get from cooking!

ALI: Yeah. And it's like simple things like literally like, I love putting olive oil and like flake salt on something. Even if I bought something from the store and just added some dill and black pepper. Like it's something so small, but it makes me feel like this has my touch.

JULIA: I love that so much. This is all so incredible and so generous of you. I know how much I've gotten out of hearing about all this and I can’t wait to share it.

ALI: Thank you so much for wanting to do it.

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Thanks for being here y’all. Take good care and talk soon. xoxoox, Julia